The Flame Thread! :D

[Kohkane]

So this is the thread where you just bitch about stuff....There will be a new topic to bitch about every week so you dont start bitching about how your mom destroyed your life and so on...:rolleyes:
I also asked if this was ok! http://www.slowfo.com/showthread.php?t=405 :D

So lets see..the topic will be..
Abortion & Stem cell research

3
2
1
START YOU BITCHING AND FLAMING! :devil:

[CNFD]

Abortion. Should be every woman's choice. Fuck the government for saying what we can and cannot do to ourselves as long as that act does not hurt us (ie bud)

[eimajuno]

Abortion should stay safe and legal. It's a woman's choice. No church or government should change that.

[Kohkane]

So you guys think it right to kill a human being just because the woman didnt want him/her?

[Notorious0601]

So you guys think it right to kill a human being just because the woman didnt want him/her?

Yes. A fetus is a parasite.

Fuck the government for saying what we can and cannot do to ourselves as long as that act does not hurt us (ie bud)

Fuck the government, period.

[Kohkane]

Yes. A fetus is a parasite.



Fuck the government, period.
A fetus (or foetus or fœtus) is a developing mammal or other viviparous vertebrate, after the embryonic stage and before birth. The plural is fetuses, or sometimes feti. The fetal stage of prenatal development starts when the major structures have formed, and lasts until birth.[1]

In humans, the fetal stage of prenatal development starts at approximately the beginning of the 9th week after fertilization, which is equivalent to the start of the eleventh week in "gestational age."[2][3]

Wikipedia proves you wrong.

[Notorious0601]

It's all about perception, buddy.

[CNFD]

Yes. A fetus is a parasite.

haha agreed. I don't think we should just throw the fetus' away however...maybe they can be used for something? Maybe they could used in the gen car engines as a fuel? ie "Introducing the new Ford Mistake....powered by the biggest uh-oh of your life...

[Notorious0601]

"Introducing the new Ford Mistake....powered by the biggest uh-oh of your life...

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Dude, that was an instant freaking classic!

[BigIke]

someone should have used a coat hanger on this fucking thread :lol:

[CNFD]

cant forget about the big flight of steps ike :D

[WorldIRC]

I figured this was a calgary flames thread...in any event, to the troll section she goes!

[BigIke]

I figured this was a calgary flames thread...in any event, to the troll section she goes!

the calgary flames :lol:

more like the flamers :smiley finger:

[orangejello727]

I rather the mother sell the child instead of killing it. There are enough couples that cannot have kids that would gladly pay for the kid.

[Katya]

I rather the mother sell the child instead of killing it. There are enough couples that cannot have kids that would gladly pay for the kid.

Yeah, that's why there's so many kids being bumped around in foster homes.

Nothing to do with there being more children being born that people willing to take care of them.:rolleyes:

[CNFD]

I rather the mother sell the child instead of killing it. There are enough couples that cannot have kids that would gladly pay for the kid.
But then you have to decide how to ship them. In order to save money, should they be packaged on ice and put on Amtrak or Greyhound? Or would the survival rate during shipping be better if we opted for American Airlines or Delta? You see its all politics here. To hell if it will come out of tax payers money, because I say stop em' at the source. Spawn Killing might be gay, but I'd rather be gay than have to support that bastard for 18 years.

Also how much is each child worth? Should there be a sliding pay scale? Or is it a one price fits all, and if you get stuck with a less than desirable fetus, you are SOL?

[Katya]

But then you have to decide how to ship them. In order to save money, should they be packaged on ice and put on Amtrak or Greyhound? Or would the survival rate during shipping be better if we opted for American Airlines or Delta? You see its all politics here. To hell if it will come out of tax payers money, because I say stop em' at the source. Spawn Killing might be gay, but I'd rather be gay than have to support that bastard for 18 years.

Also how much is each child worth? Should there be a sliding pay scale? Or is it a one price fits all, and if you get stuck with a less than desirable fetus, you are SOL?

OMG :lol:

[Katya]

I figured this was a calgary flames thread...in any event, to the troll section she goes!

That's what I thought too.

[orangejello727]

But then you have to decide how to ship them. In order to save money, should they be packaged on ice and put on Amtrak or Greyhound? Or would the survival rate during shipping be better if we opted for American Airlines or Delta? You see its all politics here. To hell if it will come out of tax payers money, because I say stop em' at the source. Spawn Killing might be gay, but I'd rather be gay than have to support that bastard for 18 years.

Also how much is each child worth? Should there be a sliding pay scale? Or is it a one price fits all, and if you get stuck with a less than desirable fetus, you are SOL?

American / Canadian couples always go to Russia, China, Africa to adopt new born babies and children. They pay thousands of dollars and fill out countless forms.

There is an even bigger market for new borns than there is for infants in foster homes. Its just like pets. People rather have a puppy froms start then a full grown dog coming from another home. Its just facts

To each their own. I rather a family get a new born to have to kill it. Fetus/parasite or not.

[Notorious0601]

Meh, I'd push for my (in this case, hypothetical) chick to get aborted should this situation ever happened.

Life is already short enough as is, so there's just no way in hell I'm putting nearly two decades of my life in the backburner in order to raise descendance. Bottom line is, I want to life my life to the fullest and I will NOT spawn descendance. I have cousins who can take care of continuing the lineage if it so pleases them.

Besides, not everyone wants a cookie-cutter life - you know, working 9-5, having a mortage, a wife (that part is made even more difficult because of my being a LaVeyan Satanist), 2,2 kids, that kind of stuff. The mere thought of settling down and raising a family sends deathly chills down my spine.

[Deke218]

Good thing we were all allowed to be born before we showed up on the sceen. None of us would be here if we were the ones to give us birth.

[Himself™]

Back when my daughter was conceived, abortion was mentioned. I was not having any of that, not with a child of mine, no way in hell. I actually took offense even though it was only asked. Of course, with the way she is acting now,,, nah just kidding ;)
I do firmly believe it should be totally up to those involved directly, and not up to any snooty, think the populace are nothing but moronic idiot peasants government though.

[w4lker]

I've never been able to understand abortion; please help me. I am not against it; I just cannot understand how it is okay. Please read my logic (which I've had since I was 10 and never talked to ANYONE about) and tell me where I'm wrong:

1) It's NOT alive when it's just a sperm and an egg.

2) It IS alive 1 second before it comes out of the vagina

3) We do not know (for sure) at what point during those 9 months it BECOMES alive

4) Therefore, we cannot know that we are not killing a baby by aborting it.

HELP??

I know I cannot be right, because 1 in 4 women have abortions (yes you read that right) and they can't all be committing infanticide. I just cannot rationalize to myself how we can be *certain* that it's just "tissue" rather than a living being.

[Kohkane]

"When a woman walks away from an abortion clinic, she leaves behind the dead body of her pre-born baby. The abortion clinic must dispose of the body. Legally, abortionists must treat aborted fetuses as medical waste" I wonder why its treated as medical waste when the fetus could be used for stem cell research, I mean..if your going to waste a human life you might as well do SOME good.

[CNFD]

Legally, abortionists must treat aborted fetuses as medical waste
Damn that sucks. They just get thrown in those orange bio-hazard buckets with all the used needles? Must hurt. I'd personally rather swim 10 laps in an olympic sized swimming pool filled with aid's infected needles and take my chances than having a kid at this point. I'd be screwed because my local wal-mart ran out of toddler sized Tony Stewart outfits. To hell if I'm going to put him/her in a Jimmy Johnson one-sie. I would settle for Ehardhardt though...

[w4lker]

in the old days, anti-abortion activists used to dig in the dumpsters behind the clinics and pull out fetus parts. Skulls, spines, arms, legs, etc. You have to break it up into pieces to get it out in the later stages...

[CNFD]

Its just like pets. People rather have a puppy froms start then a full grown dog coming from another home.
Well heres where it can tricky. I'd rather have a dog that is already house broken and knows not to shit all over my carpet and piss wherever it feels like. Much like a child. Pretty much from age 1-7 the little shit head cannot even goto the bathroom by itself. Why would I want that? I could have a fully functioning child, adopted at age 17 or 18 or so, and I will know if that kid is a fuck up before I sign the line. But with a child from another country, you are pretty much playing russian roulette. Your kid could grow up hating you from taking him/her from their country of origin. So those 18 years before they can move out will be pure hell. I'd rather take the dog that knows if he goes boom-boom on the white carpet then he's getting a size 12 to the gut. Same thing goes for children.

[Himself™]

Well heres where it can tricky. I'd rather have a dog that is already house broken and knows not to shit all over my carpet and piss wherever it feels like. Much like a child. Pretty much from age 1-7 the little shit head cannot even goto the bathroom by itself. Why would I want that? I could have a fully functioning child, adopted at age 17 or 18 or so, and I will know if that kid is a fuck up before I sign the line. But with a child from another country, you are pretty much playing russian roulette. Your kid could grow up hating you from taking him/her from their country of origin. So those 18 years before they can move out will be pure hell. I'd rather take the dog that knows if he goes boom-boom on the white carpet then he's getting a size 12 to the gut. Same thing goes for children.

You're not too keen on kids are you? :D

[CNFD]

You're not too keen on kids are you? :D
Eh they have their moments. Sure they can be cute at times, but I don't think the 30 minutes of cuteness a week is worth the 50 diapers, 3 broken lamps, 20 jars of smelly food, and countless hours of crying.

[Katya]

I've never been able to understand abortion; please help me. I am not against it; I just cannot understand how it is okay. Please read my logic (which I've had since I was 10 and never talked to ANYONE about) and tell me where I'm wrong:

1) It's NOT alive when it's just a sperm and an egg.

2) It IS alive 1 second before it comes out of the vagina

3) We do not know (for sure) at what point during those 9 months it BECOMES alive

4) Therefore, we cannot know that we are not killing a baby by aborting it.

HELP??

I know I cannot be right, because 1 in 4 women have abortions (yes you read that right) and they can't all be committing infanticide. I just cannot rationalize to myself how we can be *certain* that it's just "tissue" rather than a living being.

There are laws about how far into the pregnancy you can have an abortion. Legal abortions take place before the embryo/fetus has even developed a brain stem of cortex which begins to develop to after the 20th week of pregnancy. Without a brain stem or a cerebral cortex the fetus is unable to feel pain, be capable of cognition. It's no more self-aware of feeling than an amoeba. To compare it to an actual baby that is capable of thought, self-awareness, emotion, and feeling pain is ignorant at best.

Most abortions are performed between the 4th and 12th week of pregnancy. Abortions taking place late into the pregnancy are permitted only because there is a severe defect with the fetus or the pregnancy is threatening to the mothers life.

[orangejello727]

Well heres where it can tricky. I'd rather have a dog that is already house broken and knows not to shit all over my carpet and piss wherever it feels like. Much like a child. Pretty much from age 1-7 the little shit head cannot even goto the bathroom by itself. Why would I want that? I could have a fully functioning child, adopted at age 17 or 18 or so, and I will know if that kid is a fuck up before I sign the line. But with a child from another country, you are pretty much playing russian roulette. Your kid could grow up hating you from taking him/her from their country of origin. So those 18 years before they can move out will be pure hell. I'd rather take the dog that knows if he goes boom-boom on the white carpet then he's getting a size 12 to the gut. Same thing goes for children.

The upbringing on of a child from baby to childhood has nothing to do with where the baby was born (Country) or colour of skin. It has to do with parenting. If that child is brought up with love and proper care then the child will do fine. Just like a dog. IF a puppy is trained and taught properly it wont shit and piss all over your house.

To each their own when it comes to kids. But why throw away or kill a someone when there are people willing to adopt and take them in?

[w4lker]

a brain stem of cortex which begins to develop to after the 20th week of pregnancy. Without a brain stem or a cerebral cortex the fetus is unable to feel painI don't know about that. The youngest surviving *birth* was at 19 weeks.

A cited quote from Wikipedia is "Brain stem activity has been detected as early as 54 days after conception,[23] and the first measurable signs of EEG activity occur in the 12th week.[24] "

[Katya]

Okay, so what does Wiki(which is written and edited by random people on the internet so it must be true!) say about the cerebral cortex?

Cause without that, again, no pain, no self awareness...etc...I'd go on but I gotta work...

Get back to me on that.

[w4lker]

I won't, for the same reason I never ever talk about this with anyone: I have no way of knowing whether you or a loved one have had an abortion.

Look it up yourself, the article is Pregnancy. The quote I posted is properly cited and backed by academic literature.

I'm also not trying to convince anyone; I firmly believe that my logic is wrong for some reason. I just want someone to help me see that reason.

[w4lker]

PS I believe that you cannot define life with logical arguments: i.e. if it can't do "a" or can't do "b", it's not alive.

The reason is that life is a continuum. You start as a single cell, and you get more and more advanced and "alive" until you're around 30. (At some point you pass through a vagina, but we would still consider it murder if someone reached into the vagina and vacuumed you out 1 minute before your birth. So passing through a vagina is just a stage like anything else; you are clearly alive before that despite not even having taken a breath yet.)

Then around age 30 your body starts to die, and that takes up to 80 more years. Your body develops continuously from the moment of conception to age 30, and then it slowly shuts down.

I can't see how if you choose a point on that continuum to terminate someone's existence, you have not killed them. It doesn't matter what functions they "don't yet" have or "no longer" have. You have stopped their existence.

This can't be right, though, can it? I must have used a logical fallacy or something. Doctors are smarter than me, and they know more about life and death than me, and they perform abortions. Why??

[amkls704]

I'm a girl, I'm pro-choice.

No one should be able to tell me what to do with my body, or anyone else's for that matter.

Then rape comes into the picture. Would I want to carry a child if I was raped? No. Should I have to? Absolutely not.

[w4lker]

According to my flawed logic, it doesn't come down to a choice.

You can't abort a child after birth, right? I mean you can't decide after a couple of days of changing diapers that child rearing really isn't for you and put the "post-natal fetus" in a dumpster.

My logic says you can't do that before it has passed through your vagina either. And I've never heard or been able to think of a counter argument to my logic. This is the first time I've ever asked anyone else, though... perhaps it's not the right place!

EDIT: Vaginas, while admittedly magical orifices, do not have the power to bring a lump of flesh to life. Passing through a vagina does not cause life. (If it did, my cock have his 12th Birthday in July.)

We know that the baby is alive before it passes through the vagina. Since we don't know when it becomes alive, we cannot suck it through a vacuum cleaner. It is not a case of "a woman deciding what to do with her own body" -- we are talking about the child's body here.

[amkls704]

According to my flawed logic, it doesn't come down to a choice.

You can't abort a child after birth, right? I mean you can't decide after a couple of days of changing diapers that child rearing really isn't for you and put the "post-natal fetus" in a dumpster.

My logic says you can't do that before it has passed through your vagina either. And I've never heard or been able to think of a counter argument to my logic. This is the first time I've ever asked anyone else, though... perhaps it's not the right place!

Let me put it this way. I'm a girl. Would I personally have an abortion? No. I would never be able to live with myself. I more than likely won't ever deal with that situation because I'm gay, lol

But either way - let's say a 16 yr old gets raped. Should she have the right to make her own decision? I think so. Why should she have to skip college and the rest of her life because someone violated her.

To me, it isn't the issue of whether it's unborn, born. It should be the woman's choice. It is her body.

Yeah people are stupid. If you're going around fucking without condoms, you're a dumbass and if you get pregnant, you should have to live with your choices. But in situations like rape, or high risk pregnancies, yes, I think it should be a choice. It's more of the church and other people trying to tell women what they should be doing with their bodies that irritates me.

I personally would never have an abortion if I got pregnant. But if I got raped, I would. Or I would give it up for adoption. That is a life altering situation, and no victim of rape should have to live with something they didn't want in the first place.

[w4lker]

If she was raped, could she morally give birth to the baby and *then* feed it into a vacuum cleaner?

No, because it's alive. She can't destroy it because it's alive; it's a person.

The question is "when does it become a person". Because once it's a person, you cannot throw it in a dumpster.

Does passing through a vagina make it a person? No, no it doesn't. We know for a fact that it's alive/a person 1 minute before it passes through the vagina. Also 2 minutes, also 3.

In fact, we cannot say with any certainty when it stops being a lump of cells you can throw in a dumpster and when it starts being a person that you're not allowed to kill.

And because we do not know the answer to that riddle, we cannot vacuum it. Because what if it was alive and we didn't know it? Then we'd be murderers.

I respect a woman's right to chose what happens to HER body 100%. But we are talking about a baby's body here too -- and a woman does NOT get to do *anything* she wants with her baby's body.

[Katya]

Are you vegan, w4lker?

[CNFD]

Thats what's wrong with the system. Why can't we abort some 30-days after birth? We should have a return policy on newborns, espc if yours gets damaged in shipping. Only partial store credit though...they cant be refurbished.

[EPVQ30]

you sound like a frustrated abortion. go slit your wrists.

[Kohkane]

Thats what's wrong with the system. Why can't we abort some 30-days after birth? We should have a return policy on newborns, espc if yours gets damaged in shipping. Only partial store credit though...they cant be refurbished.
I don't even think your taking this seriously..

[w4lker]

Are you vegan, w4lker?Nope; I'm not anti-killing.

Killing a human isn't the same as killing livestock. And the real question of abortion is "is it a human."

I think that we can't be certain it's not, because we know it comes to life in the womb at some point. So we can't vacuum it out because it might already be alive -- in which case we've just killed a human.

[JwY]

I've never been able to understand abortion; please help me. I am not against it; I just cannot understand how it is okay. Please read my logic (which I've had since I was 10 and never talked to ANYONE about) and tell me where I'm wrong:

1) It's NOT alive when it's just a sperm and an egg.

2) It IS alive 1 second before it comes out of the vagina

3) We do not know (for sure) at what point during those 9 months it BECOMES alive

4) Therefore, we cannot know that we are not killing a baby by aborting it.

HELP??

I know I cannot be right, because 1 in 4 women have abortions (yes you read that right) and they can't all be committing infanticide. I just cannot rationalize to myself how we can be *certain* that it's just "tissue" rather than a living being.

It's alive as soon as fertilization occurs. The debate isn't whether "it" is alive or not, but more so about when "it" is a "person".

[JwY]

I wonder why its treated as medical waste when the fetus could be used for stem cell research, I mean..if your going to waste a human life you might as well do SOME good.

Laws and politics. There are heavy restrictions on what you can do in stem cell research (legally that is).

[JwY]

I don't know about that. The youngest surviving *birth* was at 19 weeks.

A cited quote from Wikipedia is "Brain stem activity has been detected as early as 54 days after conception,[23] and the first measurable signs of EEG activity occur in the 12th week.[24] "

Brain stem activity is not higher level thinking. Your brain stem is responsible for regulating breathing, heart rate, and basic body functions for survival. It's really the cortex that makes you who you are. With only a functioning brain stem, you'd pretty much be in a vegetative state and won't be conscious.

[JwY]

If she was raped, could she morally give birth to the baby and *then* feed it into a vacuum cleaner?

No, because it's alive. She can't destroy it because it's alive; it's a person.

The question is "when does it become a person". Because once it's a person, you cannot throw it in a dumpster.

Does passing through a vagina make it a person? No, no it doesn't. We know for a fact that it's alive/a person 1 minute before it passes through the vagina. Also 2 minutes, also 3.

In fact, we cannot say with any certainty when it stops being a lump of cells you can throw in a dumpster and when it starts being a person that you're not allowed to kill.

And because we do not know the answer to that riddle, we cannot vacuum it. Because what if it was alive and we didn't know it? Then we'd be murderers.

I respect a woman's right to chose what happens to HER body 100%. But we are talking about a baby's body here too -- and a woman does NOT get to do *anything* she wants with her baby's body.

Your "riddle" can never be answered because the definition of a person is somewhat arbitrary. Women weren't considered as "people" at one point in time for example. But even if you don't have definitive answer doesn't mean you shouldn't act. It is as much politics and philosophy as it is medical biology.

[JwY]

Killing a human isn't the same as killing livestock. And the real question of abortion is "is it a human."


But that's the same as what you argued. What we know isn't certain. We don't know to what limits livestock can think or reason. I agree with you that it isn't the same, but what I'm saying is maybe in the future we'd see killing animals as wrong. We would look back and think of how barbaric it was.

[JwY]

What's missing in this discussion is that abortion isn't as simple as killing a life. If there's no abortion, then who's going to take the child? At lot of times we'll say someone will, but that's just shifting the burden on someone else. Are you going to be the one that takes him or her in? Give them a home, food, attention, and everything they need? What kind of life would they live?

Would it be fair for them to grow up going from home to home? What if this wasn't in the developed world. Think about a family that can't even support themselves. You have people still dying from starvation and treatable diseases. Who will take the kid in then? What I'm saying is there could be a conflict between living and quality of life. It's not a simple decision by any means. Just some things to think about, that's all.

[Katya]

Hey, w4lker, I'm about to release an egg in a few days. It could have been a baby.

Want me to mail you my pantyliner so you can have a candlelight vigil for it?:lol:

[w4lker]

What's missing in this discussion is that abortion isn't as simple as killing a life. If there's no abortion, then who's going to take the child? At lot of times we'll say someone will, but that's just shifting the burden on someone else. Are you going to be the one that takes him or her in? Give them a home, food, attention, and everything they need? What kind of life would they live?

Would it be fair for them to grow up going from home to home? What if this wasn't in the developed world. Think about a family that can't even support themselves. You have people still dying from starvation and treatable diseases. Who will take the kid in then? What I'm saying is there could be a conflict between living and quality of life. It's not a simple decision by any means. Just some things to think about, that's all.Does that mean that we should be able to drive around poor neighborhoods and trailer parks with a lethal injection machine, terminating any kid who's unlikely to get a fair shot at life?

No, no we can't do that because we believe (rightly or wrongly) that it's wrong to go around arbitrarily ending lives. We send people to jail for that.

Otherwise, there are plenty of families who would benefit from being able to kill off one or two of their children for the sake of the others. Orphans, fetal alcohol syndrome babies, and the autistic could certainly be killed for the same reasons of mercy and compassion outlined above.

In truth, we don't do this. The only reason we allow abortion is that we've somehow rationalized ourselves into thinking that a baby inside a vagina isn't alive yet. JWY you have argued that it *is* alive -- which would make all abortion infanticide. That's what I think too: I was hoping someone would convince me otherwise.

Katya, the ova you'll discharge onto your maxi pad will almost certainly *not* have been fertilized by a man's sperm, making them *not* growing humans. So there's no more reason to have a funeral for them than there is for your toenail clippings. And anyway I don't know if you can mail that kind of thing across the border. I suppose it's the first and only time a real practicing lesbian will offer to mail me her bodily secretions, though...

[Katya]

I was hoping someone would convince me otherwise.


no, you're not.

At least I'm honest about not being able to be swayed.

That egg could have become a baby had I given it the opportunity just the same as a zygote, embyro, and a baby. All those stages are no less human by your logic. The only thing something has to do to be considered human is have the possibility to be born. It doesn't matter if they exhibit the characteristics that sepereate humans from the rest of the animal kingdom, or even an amoeba for that matter.

All life is so precious . . .except for what's already been born, who gives a shit about babies after they've been born, amirite?

(and I am supposed to be offended by you calling me a lesbian? Because all it does is convince me even more that you're backward)

[w4lker]

Oh SHIT I wrote that post at midnight when I couldn't sleep and I mixed up usernames. Sorry Katya I sincerely confused your username with "amkls704", who has also posted and who is a real lesbian.

And yes I am trying to be convinced.

An unfertilized egg is not a human because it's not on the continuum between zygote and dead senior citizen in a coffin. It's no more a human than a rock or a pack of cigarettes.

By contrast: an embryo, fetus, newborn, baby, toddler, child, tween, teenager, twentysomething, thirtysomething, middle-ager, retiree, pensioner, and infirm old person in palliative care ARE on that continuum. It's all the same lump of cells, in different forms:

The progression of a lump of cells:

|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
Zygote...Born..........10..........20..........30. .......etc.........Dead Grandma
..........................autonomous.............. .not autonomous....
..................self-aware..............................dementia....... .
...................................fertile........ ............infertile.........
..heartbeat....................................... .........................heart stops
.neural activity.......................................... .................neurons stop



I just don't see how anyone can mark a point on the continuum before which killing is not murder.

[amkls704]

Oh SHIT I wrote that post at midnight when I couldn't sleep and I mixed up usernames. Sorry Katya I sincerely confused your username with "amkls704", who has also posted and who is a real lesbian.


Lesbians don't HAVE periods. :eek: ha





I just don't see how anyone can mark a point on the continuum before which killing is not murder.

You can't. That's the big debate. One day, maybe it will be answered - or there will be alternatives to abortion through some technological advance, but right now - there's no answer. And right now - since there isn't, it should remain the woman's choice to do as she pleases with her body.

[w4lker]

but if you can't say that it's not murder, how can you do it?

[Katya]

Moral circumstances.

I don't live my life thinking everything is black and white and you shouldn't do things "just because".

[w4lker]

Not even killing?

[Katya]

Nope. Grey.

I do this thing called, thinking for myself and sticking to the path of least suffering. . .

Amazingly, somehow, I haven't gone on a mad killing and pillaging spree.

I'd explain how it works but I'm afraid it might hurt your brain.

[w4lker]

well this is the Flame thread -- explain away

I'm sincerely interested. I've always known that I'm too black-and-white, but understanding how something is "sorta" killing a baby but "sorta" okay just implodes my very small brain.

Maybe the rescuers in China should be bombing the rubble instead of digging it out? That would certainly result in less suffering for all involved.

[Katya]

There you go, comparing an embryo to an infant again.

Infants are those already born things you don't give a shit about, remember?

[JwY]

Does that mean that we should be able to drive around poor neighborhoods and trailer parks with a lethal injection machine, terminating any kid who's unlikely to get a fair shot at life?

No, no we can't do that because we believe (rightly or wrongly) that it's wrong to go around arbitrarily ending lives. We send people to jail for that.

Otherwise, there are plenty of families who would benefit from being able to kill off one or two of their children for the sake of the others. Orphans, fetal alcohol syndrome babies, and the autistic could certainly be killed for the same reasons of mercy and compassion outlined above.

In truth, we don't do this. The only reason we allow abortion is that we've somehow rationalized ourselves into thinking that a baby inside a vagina isn't alive yet. JWY you have argued that it *is* alive -- which would make all abortion infanticide. That's what I think too: I was hoping someone would convince me otherwise.

This is where your reasoning has it's problem (I'm not flaming you by any means, just trying to make you see what I mean): You're arguing about a person versus what isn't completely a person. You're confusing alive with a person. That person is not only alive, but has rationale and thought. If I take a swab of your mouth, the epithelial cells I take out are alive. But are they really a person? By arguing that killing something that is alive would be murder as you're saying would be saying that killing those cells from your mouth as murder. An ant is alive, it is not a person. Keep those terms separate.

Before the neural tube closes and forms the brain and CNS, you aren't a person. Autonomic responses such as breathing and a heart beat don't make a person. The problem is when you get into that gray area -- not being right doesn't mean you are wrong either. But most abortions (at least in Canada) are done before 12 weeks, like you mentioned with brain stem activity. Generally, they try to leave as much of a margin as possible.

[JwY]

There you go, comparing an embryo to an infant again.

Infants are those already born things you don't give a shit about, remember?

Whatever people argue about prenatal ethics, mother nature has still given us one distinct line -- birth.

[w4lker]

Whatever people argue about prenatal ethics, mother nature has still given us one distinct line -- birth.That line is just one in one million steps of your development from zygote to corpse in a coffin. As I posted previously, you would go to jail for murder if you killed a "fetus" 1 minute before it passed through the vagina. Passing through a vagina is not a magical ceremony that endows you with life.This is where your reasoning has it's problem (I'm not flaming you by any means, just trying to make you see what I mean): You're arguing about a person versus what isn't completely a person. You're confusing alive with a person. I grant that it *becomes* a person at some point in the womb. That point could be 1 second before it comes out of the vagina, or it could be when its' heart starts beating, or it could be some other time we can't measure and don't know about.

What I'm saying is "how can we risk it?" If we don't know for sure whether it's a person or not, how can we feed it to the vacuum? We keep people alive that *do not even* have enough neural activity to breathe on their own or to beat their own hearts. We do this because there is a tiny, tiny possibility that they will gain these abilities in the future -- and we consider them to be people despite having *fewer* person-like qualities than a 20-week fetus.

If we cannot possibly know at what point we are dealing with a person, how can we terminate it?

As for the number of weeks, if you're in Québec your fellow taxpayers will pay to fly you to the USA where you can get a 25-week abortion. I kid you not.

[amkls704]

If we cannot possibly know at what point we are dealing with a person, how can we terminate it?



If we have already told you the answer to this question, WHY DO YOU KEEP REPEATING IT?

It's getting annoying.

No, you can not determine it. There is no answer to this question. Everyone thinks differently. You've stated your opinion, we understand what you feel.

Stop trying to make others think the same way you do.

[w4lker]

I keep restating it because "I'll do what I want" is not an answer to an ethical question.

I'd like someone to show a reason why it's ethical. Because I truly believe that all of the doctors and educated people out there who are pro-abortion must have more compelling reasoning than "I'll do what I want". Or "It's better for me that way." But that's all I've heard so far. (The third one is, of course, "we don't know for sure that it is a person so that means it's fine to kill it.")

[Katya]

Here you go then:

www.google.com

Enjoy.

[w4lker]

you're not required by law to post to this thread

why are you angry that I'm looking for a stronger answer than

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j80/k_2nice05/cartman-1.jpg

[Katya]

I'm not getting angry over a dumb internet thread, I'll leave that to you. I was trying to be helpful, muffin.

You can't grasp the concept that sometimes killing is the lesser of two evils. Everything is black and white and such and such. I've heard it all before. There's really no point in bringing anything else up because then we'd go into the suffering of those who've already been born or will be born. You've made it clear that you don't care about those who have entered the world. Just as long as they, and those close to them, suffer before they die.

There's lots of pro-choice websites online with opions of pro-choice doctors and professionals, none of which post here.

So again:

www.google.com

[w4lker]

I'm not the one who brought up the subject.

I don't think that "killing to reduce suffering" is a human value.

What about street junkies? They are guaranteed to suffer terribly until the end of their short, sad lives. Is it not "pro-suffering" to let them live on?

How can you live with yourself if you don't drive downtown and execute street junkies behind dumpsters at night? (That was sarcasm for anyone who just tuned in.)

In my opinion, killing people because they will probably have bad lives is beyond absurd.

[Katya]

There you go again, comparing zygotes to the self-aware.

you ever wonder how many of them wish they'd never been born? I bet you the percentage ranks pretty high.

Hopefully though, they'll spawn some crack babies. That'll make you happy.

[w4lker]

what?

[Katya]

Well, if a junkie gets knocked up while she's whoring herself for more drugs she should keep the baby because all life is precious and killing is always black and white and therefor always wrong.

clearly, that's in the best interested of what would soon be a baby.

[w4lker]

Now this gives real insight.

As a pro-choice person, you see a planned killing as the lesser of two evils?

Perhaps that's my error: I have not thought of this type of killing as a sort of "compassionate euthanasia." i.e. accepted as killing, but still worthwhile

Am I getting closer to understanding?

[Kohkane]

Bump...crocket spam T_T

[crocket]

Bump Bump Bump Bump Bump................

[Katya]

:lol:

[amkls704]

Bump Bump Bump Bump Bump................

do you SERIOUSLY have over 1,000 posts on here already? wow.....

[Kohkane]

Well I'm guessing its time for a new topic! Lets see....

Homosexuality

3
2
1...
START YOUR BITCHING AND FLAMING! :devil:

[crocket]

So is this a coming out of the closet post for you Kohkane? :lol: jk

[Kohkane]

So is this a coming out of the closet post for you Kohkane? :lol: jk

SHHHHH! it was going to be a surprise :dur: jk

[crocket]

SHHHHH! it was going to be a surprise :dur: jkYou better watch it, Mac Ace will be all over you like white on rice! :eek: :lol:

[JwY]

That line is just one in one million steps of your development from zygote to corpse in a coffin. As I posted previously, you would go to jail for murder if you killed a "fetus" 1 minute before it passed through the vagina. Passing through a vagina is not a magical ceremony that endows you with life.I grant that it *becomes* a person at some point in the womb. That point could be 1 second before it comes out of the vagina, or it could be when its' heart starts beating, or it could be some other time we can't measure and don't know about.

What I'm saying is "how can we risk it?" If we don't know for sure whether it's a person or not, how can we feed it to the vacuum? We keep people alive that *do not even* have enough neural activity to breathe on their own or to beat their own hearts. We do this because there is a tiny, tiny possibility that they will gain these abilities in the future -- and we consider them to be people despite having *fewer* person-like qualities than a 20-week fetus.

If we cannot possibly know at what point we are dealing with a person, how can we terminate it?

As for the number of weeks, if you're in Québec your fellow taxpayers will pay to fly you to the USA where you can get a 25-week abortion. I kid you not.

I get the impression that either you don't understand the science or you're not willing to really listen. I even explained it from a developmental point of view with reasonable certainty. By your logic, we shouldn't even have jails or criminals because we're not certain they did it. But do you know why we do? It's because we're certain beyond a reasonable doubt. It's a risk, but an educated and reasoned risk. You're avoiding what I'm saying are flaws in your reasoning. I'm not saying abortion is right, I'm saying it's not wrong.


If we cannot possibly know at what point we are dealing with a person, how can we terminate it?

The reason why people don't know is because of semantics, not science or facts. What is decided upon is the definition -- that doesn't make it anymore right or wrong.

[JwY]

In my opinion, killing people because they will probably have bad lives is beyond absurd.

Asking others to suffer because of what happened to you or what you decided to do is absurd. It doesn't make you any more right.

[w4lker]

It's because we're certain beyond a reasonable doubt.This makes sense. Still a bit hard to swallow, though -- is it unreasonable to doubt that something is human despite not *yet* exhibiting all human characteristics? Lots of comatose people (re-embryos?) lack the exact same characteristics. But we can't abort the comatose.The reason why you don't know is because of semantics, not science or facts. What is decided upon is the definition -- that doesn't make it anymore right or wrong.No, it's the other way around. Semantic games are what people use to cloud the real truth of what's happening.

-"Embryo" doesn't sound very human, therefore it's okay to vacuum it.

-"Fetus" sounds more human, so we have to start bringing in emotional arguments about the mother's wellbeing in order to justify vacuuming it.

-"Baby" sounds very human, so we can no longer vacuum it.

In fact, though, those three terms describe THE SAME THING during different periods of its' existence. Why it's okay to vacuum it when we're using one term for it and then suddenly *not* okay to vacuum it as soon as we change terms is beyond me. Either vacuum it or don't!

[w4lker]

Asking others to suffer because of what happened to you or what you decided to do is absurd. It doesn't make you any more right.But killing them suddenly makes it all right again? Killing is like a time machine that undoes mistakes of the past, and protects you and your baby from the consequences retroactively? Cool; time machines are cool.

[Himself™]

Look, if you all don't calm down there may be long-term bans involved!

[Himself™]

Just kidding, as if... Flame on :lol: :lol:

[JwY]

This makes sense. Still a bit hard to swallow, though -- is it unreasonable to doubt that something is human despite not *yet* exhibiting all human characteristics? Lots of comatose people (re-embryos?) lack the exact same characteristics. But we can't abort the comatose.

That's why families need to decide whether to "pull the plug" on their loved ones. When someone is in a coma, it's still different because they have neural activity in the cortex. Most abortions occur before that kind of state develops. Don't argue about extremes because those aren't widely accepted and breaks the reasonable doubt aspect (ie. jailing a person that is innocent doesn't mean we shouldn't jail anyone).

[w4lker]

Right, but how about jailing hundreds of millions of people who might all simultaneously be innocent? Should we do that just because we have little conclusive evidence that they're innocent?

Or should we take your prison analogy to its' logical conclusion and say that babies are alive until *proven* not alive? i.e. I have a reasonable doubt that a lump of stem cells with neural activity and a beating heart and hands and feet may well not be nonhuman.

[JwY]

No, it's the other way around. Semantic games are what people use to cloud the real truth of what's happening.

-"Embryo" doesn't sound very human, therefore it's okay to vacuum it.

-"Fetus" sounds more human, so we have to start bringing in emotional arguments about the mother's wellbeing in order to justify vacuuming it.

-"Baby" sounds very human, so we can no longer vacuum it.

In fact, though, those three terms describe THE SAME THING during different periods of its' existence. Why it's okay to vacuum it when we're using one term for it and then suddenly *not* okay to vacuum it as soon as we change terms is beyond me. Either vacuum it or don't!

You can't argue about life being a continuum without going full circle. They are different states and are different things. That's why decisions are made on these differences. Otherwise with what you're saying, the sperm and ovum are also a continuum before that so it is wrong to use contraceptives.

It is semantics and here's why:
How do you define a person? How do you define a human? Different places define them differently. What if I take a collection of organs -- heart, kidney,lungs, etc. and hook them up by a machine and they function the same as inside someone. Does that make the collection of organs a person? No it doesn't. Often it is argued that a person is a person when the ability to have rationale thought. That's why there's this rough time frame where people are willing to do abortions. It's not a "I do what I want" as you put it earlier on. It's not anything like we'll just randomly pick a time as you make it seem.

[JwY]

But killing them suddenly makes it all right again? Killing is like a time machine that undoes mistakes of the past, and protects you and your baby from the consequences retroactively? Cool; time machines are cool.

And it's okay to kill animals, plants, and so on as well? The argument is there is a difference between a zygote and a person. You're assuming that they're the same thing, so until you prove that they are the same thing, you can't argue that.

[w4lker]

A sperm and an ovum are just individual cells: they live, they die. Just like a skin cell or a blood cell.

Once the sperm and the egg become a zygote, they are a collection of cells that is self-sustaining and self-repairing and self-reproducing. That's the difference.

The abilities and characteristics of that lump of cells will change over time, but it's distinct because it is self-sustaining and self-reproducing and self-repairing.

You can't pick a random characteristic (i.e. it does not have white skin, or it has never breathed air) and declare it to be nonhuman. Unless you're trying to rationalize something, that is.

[w4lker]

And it's okay to kill animals, plants, and so on as well? The argument is there is a difference between a zygote and a person. You're assuming that they're the same thing, so until you prove that they are the same thing, you can't argue that.Well you, as you sit right now, do not have one single atom in your body that was present in your body when you were a child. Not one.

We still say that you are the same person: you are the same thing. You're the same goddam thing, even though you have changed during your existence.

[JwY]

1) Your whole argument is based on everything being the same, but they're not. I talked about how there are different stages -- they haven't formed a brain, they don't have a heart beat. Do you agree that stages do have actual physical differences?

2) Choices are made on differences. You don't make a choice because something is the same. When you go out to eat, you make a choice because there's something you want that other options can't satisfy whether it's taste, price, etc.

---------------------------------------------

Abortion decisions or choices and based on those differences. If they are different terms describing the same thing, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[Katya]

Well I'm guessing its time for a new topic! Lets see....

Homosexuality

3
2
1...
START YOUR BITCHING AND FLAMING! :devil:

Is that even a hot button issue anymore? Is anyone still that ignorant?

Maybe being in Canada has spoiled me :lol:

[w4lker]

1) Your whole argument is based on everything being the same, but they're not. I talked about how there are different stages -- they haven't formed a brain, they don't have a heart beat. Do you agree that stages do have actual physical differences?A child and an adult are not even the same fucking thing. ("same thing" meaning "same type".) But they are the "same thing" as in "same clump of cells" that has changed form and characteristics.

The scientific definition of "life" includes the ability to reproduce. Maybe we should exterminate children since they cannot reproduce? No, no, that would be retarded. We know that at some point in their development they will be able to reproduce, so we call them "alive" and "people" anyway even though they have not *yet* taken on that particular characteristic. Just like a baby, an embryo has some characteristics of an adult and lacks some others. Where is the line where it becomes "another nonhuman organism"? And what is the name for this particular species?2) Choices are made on differences. You don't make a choice because something is the same. When you go out to eat, you make a choice because there's something you want that other options can't satisfy whether it's taste, price, etc.

---------------------------------------------

Abortion decisions or choices and based on those differences. If they are different terms describing the same thing, we wouldn't be having this discussion.what does that mean? I have no idea.

[JwY]

A sperm and an ovum are just individual cells: they live, they die. Just like a skin cell or a blood cell.

Once the sperm and the egg become a zygote, they are a collection of cells that is self-sustaining and self-repairing and self-reproducing. That's the difference.

The abilities and characteristics of that lump of cells will change over time, but it's distinct because it is self-sustaining and self-reproducing and self-repairing.

That's why your argument doesn't make sense. Animals do the same thing. That doesn't make them human.


You can't pick a random characteristic (i.e. it does not have white skin, or it has never breathed air) and declare it to be nonhuman. Unless you're trying to rationalize something, that is.

That's what you just did above. You chose a characteristic to determine when it's not okay to kill a human. You can't make an argument and then say the exact opposite in the next line. You just contradicted yourself.

[JwY]

Is that even a hot button issue anymore? Is anyone still that ignorant?

Maybe being in Canada has spoiled me :lol:

I'm not done with the last topic. :lol:

[w4lker]

That's why your argument doesn't make sense. Animals do the same thing. That doesn't make them human.it makes them ALIVE. And an ALIVE HUMAN cannot be KILLED by other humans.That's what you just did above. You chose a characteristic to determine when it's not okay to kill a human. You can't make an argument and then say the exact opposite in the next line. You just contradicted yourself.That was not a random characteristic: that was what they tell you in University separates Life from Non-Life.

[amkls704]

I thought we changed the topic. Why is w4lker still going on about the same thing?

Homos, I love them! hahahahahaha

[JwY]

Well you, as you sit right now, do not have one single atom in your body that was present in your body when you were a child. Not one.

We still say that you are the same person: you are the same thing. You're the same goddam thing, even though you have changed during your existence.

What makes me the same thing? That's what defines a person or individual. It's what a zygote doesn't possess. I came from my parents, I am not my parents. Just because something came from something else doesn't mean it's the same. Don't you see you're just proving what I'm saying?

[Katya]

Homosexuals are adorable!

Calling hair gel "product" . . .that's just fancy, that's what that is. :p

[w4lker]

What makes me the same thing? That's what defines a person or individual. It's what a zygote doesn't possess. I came from my parents, I am not my parents. Just because something came from something else doesn't mean it's the same. Don't you see you're just proving what I'm saying?I think we are getting into trouble with the phrase "same thing."

I mean "same thing" as in "same entity." As in, even if you change the motor and the wheels and paint it, it's still the same car. You might even change it to a convertible, and remove the back seats, so that it's unrecognizable. But you know and I know that it's still the same fucking car.

A human body changes form and ability all throughout its', err, cycle. It starts as a lump, and gains abilities for a long time. Then it starts to lose abilities. And then it turns into goo and then dust and it doesn't exist anymore.

But you know, and I know, that it's still the same fucking body. It's just in different forms and with different abilities.

You can't say "it's okay to feed it into the vacuum" at certain stages, and "now it's a life that we must respect at all costs" at others.

[JwY]

it makes them ALIVE. And an ALIVE HUMAN cannot be KILLED by other humans.That was not a random characteristic: that was what they tell you in University separates Life from Non-Life.

A human skin cell is ALIVE and HUMAN. Are you saying it's murder to kill a skin cell?

You're still in university right? You'll need to learn that life and non life isn't black and white like you make it. With that definition, what about parasites and viruses?

[Himself™]

I thought we changed the topic. Why is w4lker still going on about the same thing?

Homos, I love them! hahahahahaha

Thought the rules in the OP said a topic change every week? ;)
Only a few more days of lovin to go :lol:

[JwY]

I think we are getting into trouble with the phrase "same thing."

I mean "same thing" as in "same entity." As in, even if you change the motor and the wheels and paint it, it's still the same car. You might even change it to a convertible, and remove the back seats, so that it's unrecognizable. But you know and I know that it's still the same fucking car.

A human body changes form and ability all throughout its', err, cycle. It starts as a lump, and gains abilities for a long time. Then it starts to lose abilities. And then it turns into goo and then dust and it doesn't exist anymore.

But you know, and I know, that it's still the same fucking body. It's just in different forms and with different abilities.

You can't say "it's okay to feed it into the vacuum" at certain stages, and "now it's a life that we must respect at all costs" at others.

My parental analogy still stands. When does an old car become a different car? You have to choose characteristics to separate when something is the same. That's what this whole argument is about.

[JwY]

Thought the rules in the OP said a topic change every week? ;)
Only a few more days of lovin to go :lol:

Don't worry, I'm starting to get uninterested since it's starting to repeat itself. :lol:

[w4lker]

A human skin cell is ALIVE and HUMAN. Are you saying it's murder to kill a skin cell?

You're still in university right? You'll need to learn that life and non life isn't black and white like you make it. With that definition, what about parasites and viruses?Actually the definition is very concrete. Skin cells are not an organism, as I stated. They do not reproduce.

And I graduated in 2002.

[Himself™]

Don't worry, I'm starting to get uninterested since it's starting to repeat itself. :lol:

Yes I noticed that, but didn't want to say anything as I would probably have to say it a few times anyway :lol:

[w4lker]

My parental analogy still stands. When does an old car become a different car? You have to choose characteristics to separate when something is the same. That's what this whole argument is about.Either way, if we cannot kill cars then what does it matter when it becomes a new car? IF IT'S A CAR YOU CANNOT VACUUM IT

[JwY]

Actually the definition is very concrete. Skin cells are not an organism, as I stated. They do not reproduce.

And I graduated in 2002.

You never did answer me about viruses and parasites. ;)

Mind if I ask what area you studied?

[w4lker]

These are notable exceptions; you are very clever. Even Chlamydia counts as an exception.

And by exception, I mean "something that is alive despite no qualifying as alive."

Are you proposing skin cells as a new species? In what genus and class would you put them?

[JwY]

A sperm and an ovum are just individual cells: they live, they die. Just like a skin cell or a blood cell.

Once the sperm and the egg become a zygote, they are a collection of cells that is self-sustaining and self-repairing and self-reproducing. That's the difference.

The abilities and characteristics of that lump of cells will change over time, but it's distinct because it is self-sustaining and self-reproducing and self-repairing.


I forgot to point this flaw out too. A zygote cannot reproduce, so you just showed it's not alive. :)

[JwY]

These are notable exceptions; you are very clever. Even Chlamydia counts as an exception.

And by exception, I mean "something that is alive despite no qualifying as alive."

Are you proposing skin cells as a new species? In what genus and class would you put them?

University taught me to be extremely skeptical. ;)

[w4lker]

I forgot to point this flaw out too. A zygote cannot reproduce, so you just showed it's not alive. :)Yes and neither can a child or an old person, so let's feed 'em into the woodchipper to make room for us breeders! Even homosexuals (see I'm segueing into the next topic) cannot reproduce. Should we kill 'em all?

[w4lker]

University taught me to be extremely skeptical. ;)Me too. Especially of people who use generalities, emotional language, and say that something can't be defined.

[JwY]

Yes and neither can a child or an old person, so let's feed 'em into the woodchipper to make room for us breeders! Even homosexuals (see I'm segueing into the next topic) cannot reproduce. Should we kill 'em all?

That's why the argument depends on what you define is a person (semantics). Just because a zygote is a collection of cells that multiplies and grows doesn't make it a person. A tumor is a collection of cells that also rapidly proliferate (I can't believe I just compared a zygote to a tumor :p).

[JwY]

Me too. Especially of people who use generalities, emotional language, and say that something can't be defined.

Then tell me what you define is a person and why the definition changed over time.

[JwY]

Yes I noticed that, but didn't want to say anything as I would probably have to say it a few times anyway :lol:

I should probably sit the next one out. :lol:

[JwY]

Yes and neither can a child or an old person, so let's feed 'em into the woodchipper to make room for us breeders!

You're the one that picked to use that definition, not me. All I did was tell you that it doesn't apply.

[w4lker]

As I posted, I don't care what terms you use. Person, alive, tumor, whatever.

The fact is that it's the same ITEM. The same car. The same body. Whatever. Its' abilities change over time, but we still call it "the same car" no matter what its' abilities -- so long as it has not died.

Not being able to reproduce *at a given time* is irrelevant. Children cannot reproduce but they are still unkillable.

Not being self-aware *at a given time* is irrelevant. Old people with dementia are not self-aware, but they are still unkillable.

Not having any other characteristic *at a given time* is irrelevant. It's still the same clump of cells, and still unkillable throughout the duration of its' existence.

[JwY]

As I posted, I don't care what terms you use. Person, alive, tumor, whatever.

The fact is that it's the same ITEM. The same car. The same body. Whatever. Its' abilities change over time, but we still call it "the same car" no matter what its' abilities -- so long as it has not died.

Not being able to reproduce *at a given time* is irrelevant. Children cannot reproduce but they are still unkillable.

Not being self-aware *at a given time* is irrelevant. Old people with dementia are not self-aware, but they are still unkillable.

Not having any other characteristic *at a given time* is irrelevant. It's still the same clump of cells, and still unkillable throughout the duration of its' existence.

So again I pose to you, how is that different from a sperm and ovum, a skin cell? The problem is you're making assumptions in what you're saying but not acknowledging those assumptions.

You're going from point A to point C while skipping B, that's why I can't even logically debate with you. To me, you're saying "that's the way it is just because". Reminds me of circular reasoning. You're selectively choosing what you want to believe and dismisses everything else. Time and time again, when I point to specific things that are wrong in what you said, you just dismiss it.

All I did was suggest some reasons as to why people make those decisions and show you why it's wrong to say others are wrong for doing so. I never said it's right, I'm saying it's not wrong. If you are truly convinced in what you believe, there is nothing I can say to change that. You can't force someone to change their mind. The world is not absolute, everything is conditional.

I suggest we just stop talking about this particular topic for now since it's going nowhere. I hope I didn't offend you through my banter (I didn't swear or call you names ;)). No need to reply to what I said above since I already know what you're going to say. :)

[amkls704]

Homosexuals are adorable!

Calling hair gel "product" . . .that's just fancy, that's what that is. :p

Fancy! That it is! I'm gay but my best guy friend is gay and I love him to pieces.

The other day we went to meet him to get dinner and I was standing outside of the car and he pulled up, rolled down the window, and threw a whole handful of skittles at me and said "Taste the rainbow bitch!" He gets out of the car and says "Now THAT'S what you call a gay drive-by."

Oh dear, what would I do without my gay entertainment. :lolup:

[w4lker]

Hey this is the flame thread: I think you are breaking the rules.

Well there was a bit of flaming at the start; I guess you can slide.

I'm not going to break the rules; here comes my flame!

1) I didn't invent the fact that we can't kill humans. So I'm not saying "that's the way it is just because."

2) I cannot prove that it's always the same lump of cells from conception to death: maybe there is a magical switcheroo right at the vagina. I have no proof.

3) If it IS true that you can't kill the lump of cells that we call humans, then being North of a Vagina doesn't change anything. (I have no proof of this, but I *believe* that vaginas aren't magical humanification boxes. ar ar ar I said box) As I said, it's either killable or not no matter what abilities it has or doesn't have. If it's killable, then let's all go kill each other. And if it's not killable, then we need to not have abortions.

Again, I cannot *prove* that it's wrong to kill a lump of cells known as a human. All I can do is contend that any timeline in which that lump of cells transmogrifies into a human around 20 weeks of age is artificial. Your car cannot become a different car, and your lump of cells cannot become a different lump of cells. But i have no proof of this.

4) To me it's always a sign that someone doesn't necessarily know *why* they feel the way they do when they back off to generalities about the human condition, people choosing what they're going to choose, and not being able to change each others' opinions.

Flame!

[JwY]

You really do insist don't you? Need me to be more direct or something?


4) To me it's always a sign that someone doesn't necessarily know *why* they feel the way they do when they back off to generalities about the human condition, people choosing what they're going to choose, and not being able to change each others' opinions.


Because you don't acknowledge it. Again you're selectively arguing. I've shown on multiple examples why you're wrong for saying others are wrong. You always go back to comparing a zygote to a child or adult and CHOOSE that sperm, ovum, and other body cells don't count. You then argue using a definition of how the zygote is alive. I proved that definition is wrong on separating the two. You CHOOSE to ignore that and go back to saying it's continuous and how it's wrong to kill children and adults assuming that a zygote is the same thing. When I ask you to prove that you can't, yet somehow you reason that there's something that makes it a person. I use specifics and generalizations because maybe you would be able to respond to one of them better. Again you repeat comparing them to adults a few times, making an assumption that they are the same without justifying it. When I try to help you define that assumption by telling to look at the definition, you DISMISS it by calling it irrelevant, again showing how you're selectively doing things. Insert a few more of your comparisons with killing adults and throw in a car comparison that you ended up DISMISSING yourself. And that is why there's no point in arguing with you on this. Arguments are weak when you have no proof or evidence. You're doing little to substantiate your claims. If someone wanted to see where this would go on the next few pages, they just need to read this thread again from the beginning.

[w4lker]

Because you don't acknowledge it. Again you're selectively arguing. I've shown on multiple examples why you're wrong for saying others are wrong. That's my impression of your posts.

Maybe we're just not connecting? http://www.adrants.com/images/french_connection_fight.jpg

[JwY]

That's my impression of your posts.


What do you want me to address?

[Kohkane]

Thought the rules in the OP said a topic change every week? ;)
Only a few more days of lovin to go :lol:

Well thats true...few more days of bitching w4lker...enjoy it.. :lol:

[w4lker]

Well thats true...few more days of bitching w4lker...enjoy it.. :lol:Henh? How can you be mad at me for bitching and flaming in the bitching and flaming thread?

[w4lker]

or am I the first and only person to make useless and annoying posts on Slowfo?

[Kohkane]

Henh? How can you be mad at me for bitching and flaming in the bitching and flaming thread?

Never did say I was mad :lol:

or am I the first and only person to make useless and annoying posts on Slowfo?

Nah, I think I took the award for that long ago...:lol:

[JwY]

Sooooo, what else are we talking about now? :p
I guess we could all flame about the insane data rates in Canada, but I think most of us agree about that. :lol:

[Kohkane]

Sooooo, what else are we talking about now? :p
I guess we could all flame about the insane data rates in Canada, but I think most of us agree about that. :lol:
Well the new topic was Homosexuality..

[amkls704]

Well the new topic was Homosexuality..

Did someone say homos???

WHERE?!!?! :devil:

[EPVQ30]

whenever crocket gasses it on the pw, he really takes off.
wtf! i'm treading water here!:confused::(:mad:

[Kohkane]

whenever crocket gasses it on the pw, he really takes off.
wtf! i'm treading water here!:confused::(:mad:

Huh....:confused:

[Himself™]

Huh....:confused:

Sounds like he is hanging around crockets ass?:confused:

[crocket]

He told me it's your ass he wants to butter up! :lol: jk

[Himself™]

No buttering of this bun is happening!

[crocket]

He said he will get you while you snooze off at work! :zzz: :lol:

[Himself™]

New topic New topic! :lol:

[Kohkane]

New topic New topic! :lol:

Homosexuality! For the 3rd time O.o

3
2
1
START YOUR BITCHING & FLAMING!

[w4lker]

I think it sucks that gay people... I can't think of anything.

Sorry I pass

[Kohkane]

I think it sucks that gay people... I can't think of anything.

Sorry I pass

Chicken =p :devil:

[crocket]

http://gaylife.about.com/od/gaydictionary/a/slangdictionary.htm

[w4lker]

Chicken =p :devil:Nope, Canadian.

We don't have a problem with Jews or coloreds, either.

TAXES, on the other hand...

[crocket]

Nope, Canadian.

We don't have a problem with Jews or coloreds, either.

TAXES, on the other hand...Coloreds...... When were you born at the turn of the last century! :lol:

[Kohkane]

This is sooo not a revival >.>

[amkls704]

Ok I'll start -

I think it's stupid that gays can't get married but for straight people, it's okay to go get it annulled the next day. Yeah, we are "protecting the sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman"...Yeah okay, what sanctity is that? You can get wasted in Vegas get married, and have it annulled 5 hours later?

[crocket]

If you want to get Married come to Toronto where you can do just that!

[amkls704]

If you want to get Married come to Toronto where you can do just that!

It's probably what we will end up doing eventually - I just don't think I should have to move or go somewhere else away from where I grew up and love, just to get married. It sucks...hopefully that'll change eventually. It'll be a while before we get married anyways.

4th of July will be our 2 year anniversary. Before we even think about getting married, I'd probably like to at LEAST hit a 3 year mark and be done with school. :)

Another gay issue that bothers me, straight girls that hit on openly gay guys! What? You think you're going to turn them straight? :devil:

[EPVQ30]

you can always come to Boston!

we'll throw you guys a bash Slowfo style!

[amkls704]

you can always come to Boston!

we'll throw you guys a bash Slowfo style!

Sounds like a plan! haha

[EPVQ30]

i'm serious baby doll, we hate everybody here on an equal basis.
we hate/love everybody!

[w4lker]

Coloreds...... When were you born at the turn of the last century! :lol:In Vancouver, being anti-homo is about as absurd as being anti-"colored". That's the point I was trying to make!

[Kohkane]

Well this seems like a walking disaster sooo..

TOPIC CHANGE!
New topic is...Racism!

And to start it off since no one else wants to

How come some people are so Fixated on the fact that they think white is the main race anything else is shit.


There..have fun O.o

[w4lker]

how come all other races are openly racist towards each other, and white people are the only ones who try to act like they've never had a racist thought?

and then everyone thinks we're the big racists

actually sexism works the same way -- what gives?

[Himself™]

I've seen plenty of examples where, say a black person automatically assumes a white person is being racist where they are not. Automatically twisting their words or actions into a racist meaning where it is obvious that was not the intention at all.
An example would be a co-worker working the overnight asks a person to prepay, and the black person gets all angry saying they are racist making him prepay because he is black. In the meantime there are signs all over saying prepay only after 11pm.
Or it is ok for a non Caucasian to be racist towards a white person, but when it is the other way around, call the cops, the papers etc.
--
This is quite a fucking coincidence :lol:
I just had an elderly black person in the store, he was buying smokes and and couldn't decide what kind he wanted, so I started naming off brands to help him and he finally decided on Peter Jackson, so I scan it and he was not happy with the price, so I offered the 20 pack which is 2 bux cheaper and you only lose 5 smokes, and he is ok with that and we do the transaction, then he asks me to wait a minute and goes out to speak to his wife. I take care of a couple more transactions while he is gone then he comes back in asking if we had interact, I said yes of course, he asks me again and again I say yes and point to the pinpad, he asks again and I said yes sir, right here, this gentleman is using it at the moment. Then he starts talking about taking money out, and I say oh You mean a bank machine, IBM and he is yes I said interact, so I point behind him to the machine and he goes You think I am a jerk, I told him no, why would you think that? He answers by saying the way I talk, how I am answering his question and how I am acting!
Then he starts telling me to fuck off, saying you see that road there? I am like yes, and he starts going on how he owns 2 houses there and asks if i bought them for him, at this point I am getting annoyed so say Good For you, why would I buy you a couple houses, and then he starts telling me, I think of you, fuck off fuck you asshole etc. Needless to say I was WTF crazy ol man alert lmao!
So I tell the guy, leave man, I will not put up with this shit, matter fact I am calling the cops, so I pretend to call and he uses the bank machine, then as he is leaving I tell him to not come back here, if you do I will be sure you are charged with trespassing lol
His son just came back to pump gas, before he even started I told him to please come into the store, I wanted to speak with him. I asked if that was his old man, and explained what went down. He apologized and looked a little embarrassed, explaining that the guy has been drunk for 2 days straight lol
I just remembered it a full moon out, that explains a lot :lol:

[Kohkane]

Well its not always whites or blacks..theres also other races, I remember seeing a news report about a city in a state were no other race was allowed but whites..no gays no nothing..just pure white people.. and i remember clearly the guy saying "We are not racist, we just want a good clean city and if were going to achieve that it MUST be whites only" I also remember a black person who lived there and died she had to deal with loads of racism there..and when she died he death wasn't even recognized....They try to cover it up as if there the perfect city..but in all reality there a bunch of old folks who cant stand the fact that there are minoritys living in the US now

EDIT: I'll try to find the news report later

[w4lker]

In Vancouver, the racism is so high among non-whites. Koreans *hate* Japanese and Chinese: it's cultural for them. Japanese hate Chinese. All Asians hate Vietnamese. And most Asians dislike white people.

East Indians and east Asians don't like each other, Hindus don't like Muslims, and Lesbians sure hate men.

As a straight white (WASP) male, I'm in the only group saying "I like everyone." All other groups are openly hateful towards at least one other group.

Not that WASP men have necessarily been responsible for good deeds in the world throughout history. But right now, today, everyone else is racist and we're the ones who get in trouble for being mad if an Asian grandmother is driving like, well, an Asian grandmother.

[Kohkane]

This wasnt the news report I was talking about but here an article that proves my point that there are still some people who cant get over the fact that white isn't the only race anymore
http://gretnasucks.com/

[Kohkane]

Revival o.o